sa+sidewinder.. {Yes please}

[Apple Pie]

Sorry, I was just lazy. It should be a piece of cake to me

Anyway, the base damage (WD) of weapon skills is calculated in this way.

Melee WD: (D + fSTR + WS)
Ranged WD: (D + fSTR2 + WS)

fSTR = from 0 to (D / 9) + 8
fSTR2 = from 0 to fSTR*2
Note: fSTR [(D / 9) + 8] doesn't count "Arrow D"

These formulas aren't perfect yet but we can at least understand why rangers are strong...

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
I can't believe this. How many times do I have to repeat myself? I never said x4 or x5 worked with this simple equation. Suffice to say it was the only so-called "damage model" that you provided. So why aren't you subject to your own standards? You said it is "quadruple damage, defense subtracted once" and all I did was prove you wrong.

The screenshots you took didn't prove the single defense subtraction theory wrong, because normal attacks are directly governed by a damage cap, while Sidewinder is not.

It's the same basic equation. The one in the translated thread does not have the caps, that is why it doesn't work.

No, that's not it at all.

In the translated thread, you have WD = (D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP as the calculation. In order to make the calculation work, you must use fSTR2, which does not include arrow D in its calculation.

Using the formula you cited, we would have used fSTR in the equation, which would have resulted in an inaccurate calculation.

Why did we have to? All we were doing was proving you and S-E's ingame description wrong. Why does that mean we have to prove some other theory just to prove that your theory was wrong? I don't have to prove ANY alternate theory right and you'll still be wrong.

And once again, your screenshots (or rather, the logic that you used in presenting them) don't prove anything at all! Even if the description for Sidewinder said quintuple damage, the argument you presented would have applied just the same. And it would have been totally wrong.

Since *WHEN* did we say it was wrong by default? WHEN?? It's wrong because the 4x "damage model" doesn't work in any available formula. We didn't just say "S-E says sidewinder is 4x. They've got to be wrong."

No, you (plural) accepted another formula that doesn't even work over the help text. You were originally citing the fSTR formula, which will not give you an accurate result.

I never claimed it was 5x. I said I don't even care if it is 5x. I said you shouldn't harrass other people for thinking it is 5x because there is *as much if not more* proof that it is 5x than 4x.

At the time that I was "harassing" people, there was NO proof presented that it was 5x! All there was was a formula that doesn't work (the fSTR formula).

The point of all this is that people on this forum frequently believe theories with basically no evidence to back them up (and yes, I do consider the help text in game to be quite substantial evidence, until disproven). Just like people in this thread believe(d) that SA can miss (even though there is not one shred of reproducible evidence to support this) and that Sidewinder is multihit.

[imac2much]

Dan, I've come to realize something. You have *extreme* selective reading. You only seem to read what you wish to read, and then you go on tangents to try to mask your foolishness.

Sometimes you can be right, but in your eyes you are ALWAYS right. Why? I'm not really sure. But I think it's obvious to all the posters on this board. And since you claimed that you do it all on purpose, I guess you're just being obtuse on purpose.

Once again, I will repeat myself for the incredibly mentally challenged:

It did not matter to me in this thread if it was quintuple damage. As such, I did not have to prove anything. It was you who got on people's cases when they claimed 5x. All you had going for you was your theory and your ingame description, both of which don't work. If someone claimed it was 4x and left it at that, I wouldn't have cared; they are free to think what they want. But when YOU get on people's cases with information that isn't necessarily correct... well, you present it as if it was absolute truth. Gasp, you present them with misinformation, something which you have no PROOF except for an ingame information... let's see, didn't you say this in a previous post:

Only when it's called for, which is almost exclusively when someone is trying to correct others with false information. Don't believe me? Check my posts.

Quite the hypocrite aren't we? I didn't see anyone *correcting* others saying it was 5x. If that were the case, I'd agree, they would need proof to do so. But they were just making claims, not correcting others.

You were the one correcting others, with data that you did not know was correct or not. If you take the ingame description at face value, it does not fit the actual numbers, no matter which way you cut it. You had no testing or data to prove it was 4x. You were correcting others with information you had no proof whether it was true or false. For all intents and purposes, the description seems false, since it never is quadruple damage, even with your silly "quad damage - 1 hit of defense" theory. So stop playing the hypocrite.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
The screenshots you took didn't prove the single defense subtraction theory wrong, because normal attacks are directly governed by a damage cap, while Sidewinder is not.

It does have a cap, as proven by the several posts in the previous page or two. There is a maximum damage to Sidewinder. It still incorporates a cap for Attack and a cap for STR. You only THOUGHT it didn't have a cap.

This is another example of one of your ridiculous claims. Who said that Sidewinder does not have a damage cap? Because it provides big numbers?? Ridiculous. As you can see in the previous posts (I hope you can read), there is a cap. So you're wrong yet again.

And once again, for the mentally challenged selective readers out there, I posted this example in a previous post. My shots WERE NOT CAPPED, and still your quarduple damage theory did not work in ANY shape or form.

Originally posted by imac2much
So instead, let's take a monster where my shots do vary as an example, but which is still low enough that I don't have to worry about its defense nor vit very much. I chose Tavnazian sheep because it was easy to get to from Bastok (I have outpost teleport to Valkurm).

My normal shots varied, and berserk pumped up my attacks. Obviously there is no damage cap.



These sheep are pretty low level, probably around 30 or so. Suffice to say, they have been TWTBW for a while. As you can see, my damage is not capped, from the variance of my shots and also the fact that Berserk increased my damage greatly. And yet, 280x4 = 1120, even though my Sidewinder damage is 1739.

How exactly are you going to explain this? Your ambiguous VIT explanation, which you have absolutely no idea about? It's ridiculous to think that a level 30 sheep's defense reduced over 500 damage from *one shot*.

Stop making excuses. My screenshots and testing DID prove your silly theory wrong.

And once again, your screenshots (or rather, the logic that you used in presenting them) don't prove anything at all! Even if the description for Sidewinder said quintuple damage, the argument you presented would have applied just the same. And it would have been totally wrong.

It doesn't matter. I was just proving YOUR theory wrong. You were the one harping on people for saying it was something other than the game's "4x", yet you had no proof. It is obviously not quadruple for all the reasons cited. Yes, it doesn't seem like quintuple either unless you know the equation. So what? I didn't get on anyone's case for saying it was 4x or 5x. You did. It was ridiculous of you in the first place to claim so vehemently it was 4x when you had absolutely no backup that it was, other than the ingame description, that doesn't fit (it's never 4x).

Bottom line: you were the one correcting people, so you better damn well have some good proof. Citing an ingame description isn't enough when it is clear it doesn't work in any available format we can think of. I corrected you too, saying that your 4x "damage model" didn't work, and I *DID* have proof. Since you claim to make arrogant and caustic posts on purpose, I guess you were being an ignorant hypocrite on purpose too, so stop making excuses.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Quite the hypocrite aren't we? I didn't see anyone *correcting* others saying it was 5x.

Then perhaps you should actually read the thread. Start with the post directly after my first post in this thread.

It does have a cap, as proven by the several posts in the previous page or two. There is a maximum damage to Sidewinder. It still incorporates a cap for Attack and a cap for STR. You only THOUGHT it didn't have a cap.

No, Sidewinder does NOT have a cap. If you keep adding STR, your damage WILL ALWAYS keep rising, unlike normal attacks which cap out.

I suggest you reread the formula for Sidewinder.

As you can see in the previous posts (I hope you can read), there is a cap. So you're wrong yet again.

I look forward to you reading the "STR * 0.16" section of that equation, then coming back and admitting that you were wrong.

Stop making excuses. My screenshots and testing DID prove your silly theory wrong.

No, they did not. I can't believe you won't admit your error on this. It's quite obvious.

We all agree (after Apple Pie's perfect calculation) that Sidewinder is x5, right? So now that we know that Sidewinder is quintuple damage, let's plug that into your tests (you know, the tests that "prove" that x4 is wrong) and see if it works:

Regular hit = 375 (extremely consistent)
Sidewinder = 2265 ~ 2275
375 x 5 = 1875

And this one:

And yet, 280x5 = 1400, even though my Sidewinder damage is 1739.

Wow, your tests just proved that Sidewinder is NOT quintuple damage! Amazing!

It's plainly obvious that the logic you used in your tests is out-and-out wrong, period. And yet you bash me for supposedly not being able to admit when I'm wrong?

[Rones]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by imac2much
Quite the hypocrite aren't we? I didn't see anyone *correcting* others saying it was 5x.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Then perhaps you should actually read the thread. Start with the post directly after my first post in this thread.

Back to attacking me already? Giving up on imac? :p Anyway, its a strong stretch of the term 'correcting' if you want to apply it to that post. The post was putting out information for people to read and consider when making a decision on the matter. I didn't even come anywhere close to saying you were wrong.

However, after you decided to flame me, my next post was obviosuly no longer neutral.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Then perhaps you should actually read the thread. Start with the post directly after my first post in this thread.

I did. You are the one correcting people to start out with. He then responded with the reason why he thought it was 5x, and you responded with your silly theory (in a very arrogant and haughty tone). And I thought you did this on purpose?

Your very FIRST post was an attempt to correct someone with incorrect information. This is from your first post. You were "correcting others with false information."

And why has no one mentioned that Sidewinder is not 5X damage, nor is it the damage of 5 hits? It's one hit, quadruple damage, enemy defense is only subtracted once.

Rones only tried to correct you after you corrected HIM. Your VERY first post was

No, Sidewinder does NOT have a cap. If you keep adding STR, your damage WILL ALWAYS keep rising, unlike normal attacks which cap out.

Allow me to rephrase.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
The screenshots you took didn't prove the single defense subtraction theory wrong, because normal attacks are directly governed by a damage cap, while Sidewinder is not.

In this post, you are implying that Sidewinder has no damage caps.

Originally posted by imac2muchIt does have a cap, as proven by the several posts in the previous page or two. There is a maximum damage to Sidewinder. It still incorporates a cap for Attack and a cap for STR. You only THOUGHT it didn't have a cap.

This is another example of one of your ridiculous claims. Who said that Sidewinder does not have a damage cap? Because it provides big numbers?? Ridiculous. As you can see in the previous posts (I hope you can read), there is a cap. So you're wrong yet again.

It *DOES* have a cap. Actually it has the two main damage caps that regular attacks have as well: STR and ATK checks are STILL capped for EVERY single weapon skill out there. The only thing not capped are secondary stat bonuses. If you were talking about that, I am extremely sorry, but it sure did not seem you were talking about secondary stat bonuses, since every weapon skill in the game has these. Secondary stat bonuses have a soft cap as well, since alpha *decreases* as you gain levels. So as your stats go up, your alpha goes down, and WS doesn't increase nearly as fast as STR or ATK would change the damage *UNTIL* they hit the damage caps.

What this means: Before you hit the damage caps for sidewinder, STR will make a much bigger difference, but once you do, it can only contribute in secondary stat bonuses, which do not make nearly as much difference as STR itself before the cap. You are implying there is no damage cap at all and that is why the WS is so much stronger than a regular hit.

Do you know why I didn't bring this up? Because my *regular hits* still had that small increase in damage when I increased STR. Proof:



Also:

What is the relationship between STR and Attack?
...
STR:

Strength raises your damage curve itself and increases the maximum amount of damage given.

Found in an interview with S-E in January 27, 2004. They are talking about damage in general, not just weapon skills.

We all agree (after Apple Pie's perfect calculation) that Sidewinder is x5, right? So now that we know that Sidewinder is quintuple damage, let's plug that into your tests (you know, the tests that "prove" that x4 is wrong) and see if it works:

Regular hit = 375 (extremely consistent)
Sidewinder = 2265 ~ 2275
375 x 5 = 1875

And this one:

And yet, 280x5 = 1400, even though my Sidewinder damage is 1739.

Wow, your tests just proved that Sidewinder is NOT quintuple damage! Amazing!

I cannot believe this!! I cannot believe I am reading this!!! After repeating myself at least 15 times in this thread, you still cannot get the point? Seriously, how incredibly dense are you?

My purpose was not proving it was quintuple damage. I was just showing that you had absolutely no evidence that it was quadruple damage. Period.

Gee, I wonder how many times I will have to repeat myself before you figure this out. I already admitted 5x doesn't work in my formula either. So? I never claimed it was 5x, studio gobli did. You were the one claiming it was 4x, yet you had no evidence. All you had was YOUR SILLY THEORY.

It's plainly obvious that the logic you used in your tests is out-and-out wrong, period. And yet you bash me for supposedly not being able to admit when I'm wrong?

Yes, it's plainly obvious. And can you understand I only used the logic *you* provided?

It's one hit, quadruple damage, enemy defense is only subtracted once.

That's the logic you provided. And I proved it wrong. What else is there to say?

[neighbortaru]

damn! I can't believe this thread is still going on. Look what you started MurviD...

[JayblahX]

What did you expect exactly, Neighbortaru?

The thread involves an argument between various people and everyone's favorite posterboy for the "Arguing on..." image so prevalent on the internet; Spider-Dan. I'd be unsurprised if this thread never ends. Spider-Dan can never, ever, shut the hell up. Even after getting his ass trounced, even after admitting he was wrong, he will continue to fight tooth and nail and effortlessly lose the last shred of integrity he may have held.

I'm glad the thread is continuing. Watching this trouncing is top-entertainment at my workdesk. :sweat:

I'm somewhat shocked that folks didn't immediately put the quote of Spidey admitting he was wrong into their signature, despite the fact that it was the sorriest attempt at owning up to being wrong, ever.

[neighbortaru]

lol Jay, you read my thoughts (although yours is a bit more "colorful").

btw, how's the ELV ranger going?

[Timoham]

The Ranger forums used to be so quiet and peaceful too.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
My purpose was not proving it was quintuple damage. I was just showing that you had absolutely no evidence that it was quadruple damage. Period.

And if your test "proves" that quadruple damage doesn't work, then it also "proves" that quintuple damage doesn't work. But we know quintuple damage DOES work, so your test is totally irrelevant, and doesn't actually prove anything.

Still having problems admitting when you are wrong? I guess it's a lot easier when you're telling others to do it...

[imac2much]

Huh? When was I wrong?

I feel like I'm talking to a 10 year old now, so I will try to dumb down my posts for you.

See Dan. See Dan run his mouth. See Dan run away from reality. Run Dan Run. Use those excuses!

This is now the 17th or so time I am saying this.

I never corrected anyone saying it is 5x.

You were the one presenting your silly theory of 4x.

I proved it wrong.

This has absolutely nothing to do with 5x or not.

You denied I proved it wrong.

Either you are lying, or you are dense.

Because I did prove it wrong.

Several times.

5x works with the provided damage formula from Studio Gobli.

4x does not work with anything you provided.

End of story.

I hope one day you will grow up and learn how to comprehend basic human logic.

Until then...

Run Dan Run!

[sylvanas]

/slugshot@everyone

hi rugal why oh why did you lend your ebow to eli, youve inflated his rng56/nin13 ego XD

[imac2much]

Scam :dead:

He promised to lend me his Koenig.

I don't see any Koenig in my delivery box!!!

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
You were the one presenting your silly theory of 4x.

I proved it wrong.

If your tests really disprove 4x, then (in exactly the way that I already showed) using the same logic, they also disprove 5x.

Why do you continue to deny this? It's obvious that the logic behind your tests is broken, and doesn't apply.

You wanted me to admit that I was wrong and that Sidewinder is not 4x, and I did. Yet you are totally unable to admit that your tests were totally and completely flawed, and don't prove or disprove anything at all.

For (at least) the third time, if you think that your tests really disprove 4x, then they also disprove 5x. If they don't disprove 5x, then they don't disprove 4x either. You can't have one without the other.